Calligra/End 2010 Text Styles UI IRC Meeting Log
< Calligra
This is the full IRC log of the conversations that took place during the text styles UI IRC meeting on December 26, 2010.
--- Log opened Sön Dec 26 19:47:39 2010 19:48 < estan> *testing logging* 20:00 -!- ZaggeM [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:03 < estan> we're missing the pierre's, but; meeting opened! 20:05 < boemann> thanks ,adn thanks for organizing 20:06 < estan> np. 20:06 < colomar> hi 20:06 < boemann> hi colomar 20:07 < boemann> great to see you here 20:07 < boemann> colomar: i've come a long way on the non-flickering docker stuff 20:08 < boemann> (side issue though) 20:08 < colomar> sounds great! 20:08 < boemann> but it does have one implication for what we are talking about 20:08 < boemann> the docker should only be two lines of text high 20:08 < boemann> anything else and it needs to pop up 20:10 < colomar> Two lines of text? That's not exactly much... 20:10 < estan> wow. the whole thing just two rows? so no long list of styles to choose from, but a combobox-ish thing? 20:10 < boemann> estan: yes 20:10 < boemann> well two rows of buttons 20:11 -!- PierreSt [[email protected]] has joined #calligra-styles-ui 20:11 < boemann> wellcome PierreSt we are not really started yet 20:11 < estan> hmhm. okay.. not very good discoverability, needs a click to see available styles.. pretty radical imho ;) 20:11 < PierreSt> hello there 20:11 < colomar> But can users still add a bigger "normal" styles docker if they wish? 20:12 < estan> ^ my question too. 20:12 -!- ZaggeM [[email protected]] has joined #calligra-styles-ui 20:12 < boemann> they can 20:12 < boemann> but it's bad for flexibility for users 20:12 < estan> so we'll discuss the UI of both then i guess. 20:13 < boemann> colomar: well you can add as many dockers your need . the point is you can then give aach two rows a headline too 20:14 < boemann> estan: regarding discoverability with two rows you can make a single tall widget that shows a lot 20:15 < boemann> plus a headline saying styles 20:15 < colomar> ? 20:15 < boemann> let me screen shot for you guys 20:15 < colomar> Okay maybe you should clarify what you mean by "two rows" 20:15 < colomar> Yes please ;) 20:15 < estan> boemann: ah. when you said "two lines of text" i was imagining you meant it as a # of pixel limit, but you mean two logical rows, that might be high? 20:16 < estan> yea ;) 20:16 < colomar> dito 20:16 < boemann> estan: no i meant limit on number of pixels 20:16 < estan> hm. okay. 20:17 < colomar> So how can you fit a tall widget in there then? 20:17 < estan> another thing, but we can get to that later; i'd really like us to iron out how styles should be applied by the user.. single/double click, apply buttons (where?), d&d.. et.c. 20:17 * estan wonders too. 20:18 < boemann> http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/2861/docker.png 20:19 < boemann> as you can see right now the styles section is too tall in relation to the others 20:19 < boemann> though there is a scrollbar 20:19 < colomar> ah ok. But that still doesn't allow to see many styles at a time 20:20 < boemann> exactly 20:20 < boemann> so a popup is needed 20:20 < boemann> just like when chosing fonts 20:20 < estan> yes, that's what i mean when i say discoverability. i mean the user can find the styles docker easy enough, but with just a combobox there won't be any way to see the available styles without clicking. 20:20 < boemann> or popup on hover 20:20 < estan> hm. ok. 20:21 < colomar> Hover is problematic 20:21 -!- ZaggeM [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:21 < colomar> It always has the problem that it disappears if the cursor moves outside of its boundaries 20:21 < estan> as you can hear i'm a little sceptical, but sure lets roll with it and see where it gets us ;) 20:22 < colomar> Here's what I think of it so far: 20:22 < colomar> Many office suites use a combo box to choose styles and that works okay 20:22 < estan> with this compact styles docker, how would the user go about editing the properties of a style? would the items in the combobox be pimped up items of some kind, with minibuttons for bringing up properties? 20:23 < colomar> But for users who use styles very often, a list box is much more convenient 20:24 < colomar> So we should still allow those users to add a docker with a list to their sidebar 20:24 < boemann> i use styles a lot but would still prefer a popup thing 20:24 < colomar> Why? 20:24 < estan> aye, interacting with a combobox is more fiddling. 20:24 < boemann> because when i still spend most of the time writing 20:25 < colomar> ? 20:25 -!- ZaggeM [[email protected]] has joined #calligra-styles-ui 20:25 < boemann> even if i change style every so often, i still spend much more time on typing 20:25 < colomar> But on a widescreen you don't need the horizontal space anyway, so a sidebar won't hinder you 20:26 < boemann> says who, i certainly would like as much horizontal space i can get 20:26 < boemann> and i have a widescreen 20:26 < colomar> What for? To zoom in extremely? 20:26 < boemann> zoom out more likely so i can see a page width and still make out the letters 20:27 < estan> why do you spend more time typing with a combobox vs. a list? not sure i understand. 20:27 < boemann> estan: i don't 20:27 < boemann> i spend more typing than choosing styles 20:28 < colomar> You might want a maximum of horizontal space, okay. But there was a Reason why the KOffice team originally came up with a docker bar to the right 20:28 < ZaggeM> the docker is also used in e.g. stage 20:28 < colomar> And I still find that reasonable 20:28 < boemann> how i choose styles offcourse needs to be efficiennt, but related to having a good overall ui having a list is not that important 20:28 < colomar> Of course we should not force users to have one 20:28 < boemann> not forcing is one, and i still whant the left side for dockers 20:29 < estan> alright, i get your argument now. 20:29 < colomar> But I know many many users for whom vertical space is a lot more precious than horizontal space 20:29 * estan raises hand. 20:29 < boemann> well horizontal is more important if you will be srolling left and right while you type 20:30 < colomar> True, but not all users use zoom levels that would require that 20:30 < colomar> This is really a matter of personal preference 20:31 < boemann> it's not about zoom levels but screen size 20:31 < boemann> anyway 20:31 < colomar> And of Screen aspect ratio and size 20:31 < colomar> yes 20:31 < boemann> it should be flexible enough to accomodate all users 20:31 * estan agrees. 20:32 < colomar> totally agree 20:32 < boemann> and having a popup for a list of styles doesn't seem that big a sacrifice to me 20:33 < PierreSt> but if this is the case, then the interaction with the popup should be minimal 20:33 < colomar> So what would be the disadvantage if a user chooses to add a separate, taller docker for styles if she finds a list more comfortable than a combo box? 20:33 < boemann> none 20:33 < colomar> Ok. 20:34 < boemann> colomar: well except you would get back in to the flickering 20:34 < PierreSt> i mean: if we have a popup, it should already be populated with either (and only) the headings or char or parag 20:34 < colomar> boemann: yes 20:34 < boemann> PierreSt: yes 20:34 < PierreSt> which means that the choice of styel type should be available before the popup 20:35 * boemann much more interested in the design of the list than of: list or popup 20:35 < estan> +1 20:35 < colomar> yes 20:35 < PierreSt> i reiterate what i said with the list then 20:36 < PierreSt> i find that this mixture of headings/char/parag style overly confusing 20:36 < colomar> absolutely 20:36 < PierreSt> in one common list 20:36 < boemann> actually PierreSt brought up something i've been thinking about: do we want two lists. one for char and one for parag 20:36 < boemann> i for sure think the tree structure is too complex 20:37 < boemann> i get it, but am sure no normal user does 20:37 < PierreSt> the thing is: 20:37 < estan> i don't even understand it. i did once but now i've forgotten it. 20:37 < colomar> Basically I'd say yes. What we should consider, though, is the fact that paragraph styles are probably used a lot more than character styles 20:37 < PierreSt> a paragraph style is composed of two entities: 20:37 < PierreSt> the character style of the paragraph, and the "layout" style of the paragraph 20:38 < PierreSt> and here comes the confusion 20:38 * boemann uses parag styles much more yes, but i also heavily use char styles 20:38 < colomar> Maybe we should start with thinking about when which is used when 20:38 < boemann> ms word solves this by listing the parag styles at the beginning of the list and char styles below 20:38 < PierreSt> so you have orphaned char styles, and char styles which belongs to a paragraph style 20:39 < boemann> also ms word has the filter of only showing styles in use 20:39 < ZaggeM> a paragraph style has always a char style in itself 20:39 < PierreSt> i think this is good for the docker 20:40 < PierreSt> ZaggeM: does it have to define one? 20:40 < ZaggeM> PierreSt: in the end it will use the default 20:40 < boemann> well if it doesn't define it's properties it will fall back to defaults 20:40 < ZaggeM> :-) 20:41 < boemann> so colomar asked about uses 20:41 < PierreSt> which means that a parag style do not necessarily have (ie, own) a char style 20:42 < colomar> We're in danger of getting too technical here 20:42 < PierreSt> it could well only define the "layout" properties 20:42 < boemann> PierreSt: no it has also char properties 20:43 < boemann> i use parag style both to set the font and the layout of a paragraph 20:43 < boemann> like for example a headline 20:43 < ZaggeM> PierreSt in odf it does have but as all is inherit it does not need to set properties 20:43 < boemann> or main text 20:43 < colomar> We should focus back on users and uses. Users neither know nor care about properties, inheritance, embedded styles or anything like that ;) 20:43 < PierreSt> my question was not if it can have char properties, but if it must have char properties 20:43 < boemann> if i wan't my headlines to have different size i then edit the headline (parag) style, but it's char properties 20:44 < PierreSt> which ZaggeM answered 20:44 < boemann> colomar: not completely true, all of those things are commonly exposed to users 20:45 < estan> alright, but the parent child relationsship between parag and char styles, what's the point of exposing that to users? 20:45 < colomar> exactly 20:45 < ZaggeM> no use 20:45 < PierreSt> estan: i don't think there is any in the docker 20:45 < boemann> none afaict 20:45 < estan> is there currently any way for the user to define a char style that two parag style uses? 20:45 < colomar> The fact that it's exposed to them doesn't mean it's useful 20:45 < estan> and would there be any point in giving that power to the user? 20:45 < ZaggeM> and in odf there is no separation 20:46 < PierreSt> estan: that power could be given but i don't think the docker is the place for that 20:46 < estan> PierreSt: i agree. 20:46 < boemann> uhm a parag style can't inherit a char style afaik 20:46 < colomar> I'd think the difference between char and paragraph styles from a user's point of view is a lot more simple: 20:46 < estan> boemann: sorry i probably phrased it bad. the parag style has a char style, can two parag styles have the same char style? 20:46 < colomar> When I want to change the appearance of a paragraph, I use a paragraph style 20:46 < ZaggeM> estan: no 20:47 < estan> ZaggeM: aight. 20:47 < colomar> If I want to change only the appearance of some words/chars within a paragraph, I use a char style 20:47 < boemann> colomar: exactly 20:47 < estan> right. 20:47 < PierreSt> ZaggeM: can't two named parag style use the same named char style in odf? 20:47 < ZaggeM> estan: in odf the paragraph and char style is on style 20:47 < ZaggeM> PierreSt: not in odf 20:48 < colomar> So we should focus on that distinction instead of thinking about any technical implications 20:48 < boemann> a parag style has parag and char propertiesn, it doesn't have styles 20:48 < estan> ZaggeM: ah. 20:48 < colomar> Technical stuff is important, but should be considered later 20:48 < ZaggeM> PierreSt: it can't evenuse one named char style 20:48 < boemann> the entire parag style can inerit from another entire parag style 20:49 < boemann> colomar: that destinction is also what happens echnically 20:49 < boemann> technically 20:49 < boemann> so 20:49 < boemann> question is how to present styles to the user 20:50 < colomar> Yes. 20:50 < ZaggeM> different icons 20:50 < ZaggeM> ? 20:50 < estan> i'm all for having two lists, one for parag styles and one for char styles. 20:50 < PierreSt> i think we should first visually segregate 3 different types: characters, paragraph, headings 20:50 < colomar> Wait. Let's see if we might be able to find a smarter solution 20:51 < colomar> Why do we need heading styles? Are those really different than paragraph styles? 20:51 < PierreSt> technically no 20:51 < ZaggeM> not in my pov 20:51 < PierreSt> but for me a title is different than a paragraph 20:51 < boemann> 1) you can have both a current parag style plus a current char style, at THE SAME time 20:51 < boemann> heading and parag styles are one and the same 20:51 < ZaggeM> all is different but still it is onlz a style 20:52 < boemann> just more properties set 20:52 < colomar> Let's focus on the use cases again 20:52 < PierreSt> boemann: yes technically a heading and a paragraph style is the same 20:53 < PierreSt> however if i present you a piece of text and tell you, point me a paragraph, will you point me the title? 20:53 < colomar> What if we do what KDE generally hates to do but often still helps the user: Guessing what the user wants to do? 20:53 < ZaggeM> I think we need an easy way to set a style 20:53 < colomar> My suggestion: 20:53 < ZaggeM> also it should allways be visible which style is used at thr moment 20:53 < boemann> colomar: i my view guessing is always bad, but go ahead 20:54 < colomar> Not necessarily. Only if done bad and there is no way around the guess 20:54 < boemann> ZaggeM: but there are both a current parag and char style 20:54 < ZaggeM> boemann: not allways 20:55 < boemann> true, but i can be in a body text paragraph with a word in "emphasis" char style 20:55 < colomar> If the user selects a whole paragraph, she will most of the time want to set the paragraph style for it. There still has to be a way to set a char style to a whole paragraph, but it should be easier to set the paragraph style at that point 20:56 < boemann> colomar: i don't want to select a whole paragraph in order to change it's style 20:56 < colomar> If the user selects only a word or character within a paragraph, it is _very_ unlikely she wants to set a paragraph style for it 20:56 < boemann> true 20:56 < colomar> boemann: true 20:56 < colomar> So if nothing is selected, it's paragraph style 20:57 < colomar> Because you don't want to set the char style for "nothing" 20:57 < boemann> right 20:57 < boemann> well 20:57 < ZaggeM> not sure if that is right 20:57 < boemann> i might want to be able to see the stye i wil begin typing with 20:57 < PierreSt> colomar: not really, you might want to select the char style of what you are going to type 20:58 < ZaggeM> I often e.g. change the font size before I start typing 20:58 < boemann> me too, except i choose a char style :) 20:58 < colomar> yes, but usually you change it before you start a new paragraph, don't you? 20:58 < PierreSt> not necessarily 20:58 < PierreSt> if i want to add something in the middle of a paragraph (like a citation) 20:59 < boemann> +1 20:59 < colomar> Yes. I don't say it never happens 20:59 < colomar> That's why we still need to support it 21:00 < colomar> I'm just not sure if we have to present both kinds equally prominently at all times 21:00 < ZaggeM> but from what I read here it sound most likely we should have two different thinks char and paragraph styles at the same time 21:00 < colomar> I'm not offering completely thought-through solutions here. I'm just trying to think "out of the box" a little 21:01 < boemann> colomar: sure, and so do we 21:01 < boemann> two lists is not common at all 21:02 < boemann> filtering yes 21:02 < PierreSt> i think we should in a first step present the categories, to the user, then display the list of the pointed category in a second stage 21:02 < boemann> that is how ooo does it 21:02 < PierreSt> a bit like the Lancelot launcher 21:02 < colomar> But then there is yet another click 21:02 < boemann> but it adds another step :( 21:02 < colomar> yes 21:03 < PierreSt> or mouse over, but the user is already disrupting his typing 21:03 < PierreSt> to grab his pointing device 21:03 < boemann> colomar: well not if the choises are selected already in the dopopupstage 21:03 < ZaggeM> we could have a tabbed docker on for paragraph and one for char styles 21:04 < ZaggeM> or a selector for the different styles 21:04 < PierreSt> so i don't think that this small extra step is worse than a visual complex docker all the time 21:04 < boemann> i'm beginning to agree 21:05 < boemann> i've been very torn on this issue 21:05 < PierreSt> we could also think at providing (keyborad) shortcuts for setting specific syles 21:05 < estan> i'm not sure i understand, "in a first step present the categories", how would that look, UI-wise? 21:05 < PierreSt> without disrupting the typing ork flow 21:06 < boemann> two buttons, each pop up their own list 21:06 < ZaggeM> I would more likely prefer a switch between paragraph and char styles 21:06 < colomar> I'm sorry I don't have KOffice nor Calligra installed at the machine I'm currently at, so could you please tell me how it currently behaves: 21:06 < PierreSt> estan: have you got Lancelot app launcher? 21:06 < estan> PierreSt: no :/ 21:06 < ZaggeM> boemann: we should still display the current style to the user 21:06 < colomar> What happens if i place the cursor somewhere (without selecting anything) and change apply a paragraph style 21:06 < colomar> ? 21:06 < PierreSt> well: it functions a bit like OS X finder 21:07 < boemann> ZaggeM: sure but that is just what is painted on the button 21:07 < colomar> Is it applied to the paragraph the cursor currently is in? 21:07 < ZaggeM> boemann: ??? 21:07 < estan> PierreSt: haven't used that either ;) 21:07 < boemann> colomar: the parag is style is changed 21:08 < boemann> ZaggeM: nevermind i agree with you 21:08 < PierreSt> estan: well imagine you have the docker with just two lines: paragraph >, and character > 21:08 < estan> PierreSt: right. 21:08 < colomar> And what happens if I apply a character style? 21:08 < PierreSt> when you hover one line, a list appears next to it with all the corresponding styles 21:09 < boemann> colomar: it sets the current charstyle that you will write any new text with 21:09 < ZaggeM> PierreSt: I don't like this approch 21:09 < colomar> Oh. So paragraph and char styles behave quite differently 21:09 < estan> PierreSt: alright, so the idea is just two lists? 21:09 < estan> (or well, combo boxes) 21:10 < colomar> One changes things that are already written, the other doesn't 21:10 < boemann> colomar: well if you have selected a range of text and select a char style it will be applied to that text 21:10 < ZaggeM> PierreSt: for our use cas we could show 2 drop down boxes and use the same space but have more information 21:10 < PierreSt> well, i just described the thing at concept level, not visual representation 21:11 < ZaggeM> colomar: the behaviour boemann describes is what I expect as user 21:11 < colomar> ZaggeM: Yes, it is 21:12 < boemann> The one bad thing about two lists is that you can have a situation where there is no current char style (new text will be using the font properties of the parag style) 21:12 < colomar> But that means they do quite different things with those and we should probably treat them more differently than just place to comboboxes next to each other 21:12 < PierreSt> ok, i have a bit of a situation here, i'll leave the computer on, but won't be in front of the keyboard for a while 21:12 < PierreSt> so i can catch up later 21:12 < boemann> PierreSt: okay 21:13 < estan> boemann: well wouldn't the combobox/whatever show Character Style: None then or something? 21:13 < colomar> boemann: I don't really see a problem here. We can just display "none" for the current char style 21:13 < boemann> colomar: maybe, but both ooo and msword doesn't care 21:13 < boemann> colomar: sure 21:14 < boemann> estan: sure too 21:14 < ZaggeM> boemann: we could have an entry in the char list saying use char style from paragraph 21:14 < boemann> ZaggeM: good point 21:14 < boemann> actually this makes a lot of sense to me 21:15 < colomar> So does every paragraph style always have a corresponding char style? 21:16 < boemann> no 21:16 < ZaggeM> I think we all say these are 2 different thinks so e should treat them differently 21:16 < ZaggeM> colomar: depends on how you see it 21:16 < boemann> colomar: a parag style define char properties, but is not related to char styles at all 21:16 < boemann> colomar: so only if you don't have an overruling char style will the the char properties of the paragraph style be sued 21:17 < boemann> used 21:18 < boemann> and being allowed to set the char style back to none means that we ones again rely on what the parag style defines 21:18 < colomar> I'd still think "none" would be less confusing than "use char style from paragraph", since we want to present these two as pretty much unrelated 21:18 < ZaggeM> colomar: that is fine by me too 21:19 < boemann> yes but it could be like: "NONE, what is shown relies on the current paragstyle" 21:19 < colomar> Theoretically, but that would be a bit long to fit in a list, wouldn't it? 21:19 < ZaggeM> a bit long for a combobox :-) 21:19 < boemann> explaination with small letters 21:20 < colomar> Maybe a tooltip? 21:20 * estan tries to mock it. 21:20 < ZaggeM> it could be in a tooltip 21:20 < estan> yea tooltip is probably good idea.. 21:21 < boemann> while estan mocks we could talk about list vs tree 21:22 < boemann> is there anyone in favour of showing inheritance in tree? 21:22 < boemann> or should the (pretty insignificant) inheritance oly be visible in properties 21:22 < boemann> only 21:22 < ZaggeM> tree might be more obvious 21:23 < boemann> it would show the relation for sure 21:23 < boemann> but is it relevant 21:23 < ZaggeM> but not sure it needs to be shown in the list 21:23 < colomar> I don't think it's relevant enough 21:23 < ZaggeM> we could have 2 modes 21:23 < boemann> ZaggeM: or maybe use tree in the style manager but only list here 21:24 < ZaggeM> one with tree and one without 21:24 < ZaggeM> orderd by name 21:24 < ZaggeM> which is better for selecting 21:24 < colomar> boemann's idea sounds good 21:24 < ZaggeM> what is here? 21:24 < boemann> the docker 21:24 < colomar> The inheritance only matters when creating or editing styles 21:24 < colomar> Not when selecting them 21:25 < boemann> yeah 21:25 < boemann> i can't think of a case where inheritance seem significant when selecting 21:26 < colomar> me neither 21:27 < ZaggeM> so the docker will bring up the style manager for editing styles? 21:27 < boemann> ZaggeM: i was just thinking that we may want that indeed 21:27 < colomar> Id's just place an icon next to the combo boxes to edit styles 21:27 < boemann> just with the style preselected 21:28 < colomar> yep 21:28 < ZaggeM> sounds good 21:28 < estan> http://dose.se/styles-mock.png 21:29 < boemann> estan: for concept yes 21:29 < estan> yes of course. 21:29 < boemann> i'd use icons instead of writing paragraph or character , or maybe even making it obvious from the combo itself 21:30 < boemann> or i'd may want to two have two dockers 21:30 < ZaggeM> what if there are char styles applied and I want to set it to the paragraph style? 21:31 < boemann> ZaggeM: you'd select the none option 21:31 < ZaggeM> 2 docker might be a bit much 21:32 < boemann> well for the "popped down look" of the combo i'd like to show what the style looks like 21:32 < colomar> good idea 21:33 < colomar> Just like the usual font selector 21:33 < estan> boemann: (refresh) 21:33 < ZaggeM> might be hard for the char style if e.g. only italic is set 21:33 < boemann> I'm thinking we can even show the char and parag styles differently, makinging it easier to see the difference 21:33 < colomar> Although it might be difficult to visualize char layout 21:33 < boemann> estan: yup :) 21:33 < ZaggeM> or will it use the current font to create the preview? 21:34 < boemann> ZaggeM: preview could be based on on content yes 21:34 < colomar> estan: Yes, only I'd use better Icons ;) Finding distinguishable icons for paragraph and character shouldn't be too hard 21:35 < colomar> ZaggeM: Yes, that would be good 21:35 < estan> colomar: of course, i'm just kludging this in inkscape as we speak ;) 21:35 < boemann> okay here is another question: 21:35 < colomar> Thought so ;) 21:35 < boemann> automatic styles (ie style not named) 21:35 < colomar> estan: Just wanted to make sure they don't stick ;) 21:35 < boemann> do we show them? 21:36 < colomar> hm... 21:36 < boemann> colomar: easy, we all hate the current ones ;) 21:36 < estan> boemann: no! ;) 21:36 < ZaggeM> in the text styles 21:36 < estan> i was going to bring that up, i think showing them is bad and confusing. 21:36 < ZaggeM> where you also can set them 21:36 < ZaggeM> we should not show them as styles 21:37 < colomar> agree 21:37 < boemann> so how do we then show that what is current is a style plus some add-hoc properties 21:37 < colomar> They should not be exposed to the user at all. Unless she wants to create a new style from the current settings 21:37 < ZaggeM> so that would be mainly as it is at the moment 21:38 < colomar> boemann: Might make sense to change the appearance of the name in the combo box 21:38 < colomar> maybe add an icon 21:38 < boemann> maybe in the docker show a + sign next to the combo to show that 21:38 < boemann> :) 21:38 < colomar> something like that 21:39 < boemann> clicking on that icon/+sign could bring up the stylemanager filled out so the user can create a new named style of current settings? 21:40 < colomar> yes 21:42 < boemann> okay then 21:42 < boemann> now for the list we have: 21:42 < boemann> show as list 21:43 < boemann> single click to apply? 21:43 < colomar> yes 21:43 < ZaggeM> definitely 21:43 < boemann> an extra button on each entry to bring up the stylemanager 21:43 < estan> hm. that means no way to just select a style in the list (not apply it) e.g. in order to change its properties. 21:44 < estan> boemann: alright, problem solved ;) 21:44 < boemann> :9 21:44 < boemann> :) 21:44 < estan> i like that, it brings the action closer to what it's acting on. 21:44 < boemann> and takes up less space :) 21:45 < colomar> We'll have to see if the list doesn't look too crowded with all those buttons 21:45 < boemann> colomar: they can be visible on hover only 21:45 < colomar> boemann: Sounds good 21:46 < boemann> also only show named styles 21:46 < colomar> For that case, hover is okay, since this action is not that common so users can take a little more time to move the mouse precisely 21:46 < boemann> anything else? 21:46 < estan> yes, i want a hacker way of applying styles. 21:46 < colomar> *lol* 21:47 < estan> a key combo that brings up a type-ahead searchable list of styles. 21:47 < estan> at the cursor location. 21:47 < estan> ;) 21:47 < colomar> *ggg* 21:47 < boemann> lol suit yourself :) 21:48 < boemann> but actually we should be able to apply styles by keyboard 21:48 < estan> could maybe be done as a plugin in the future i guess. but i think i'd really like it. 21:48 < boemann> and typing the name may be the only long term solution 21:48 < colomar> It would be cool, but there are quite a few more important things to do first, I guess ;) 21:48 < estan> +1 21:49 < estan> colomar: regarding cramped lists, did you see my old mockup? http://community.kde.org/File:Styles-tree-mock.png 21:50 < boemann> yeah, i think what we have will be way less cramped 21:50 < estan> yes. 21:50 < boemann> so how should the preview of a paragraph style look 21:50 < colomar> But we should redesign the alternative tall docker as well 21:51 < estan> the Properties: [P] [C] [L] in my mockup will be just one properties button, and the apply button doesn't have to say "Apply", could be just icon. 21:51 < boemann> colomar: wouldn't it just be the same list without the popup? 21:51 < colomar> estan: I think the list docker should apply on single click as well, since that's still by far the most common action 21:52 < estan> colomar: yea, i'm with you all on that. 21:52 < colomar> boemann: Could be, yes. 21:52 < colomar> But that would be a redesign compared to its current state, wouldn't it? ;) 21:52 < boemann> colomar: that would really help our efforts if that could be the case 21:53 < boemann> yes 21:53 < boemann> but we have to do that anyway 21:53 < colomar> The only problem there is: Two lists together would take up a lot of screen space 21:53 < estan> but if the two lists are exactly the same, except for the popup part of it, then having a button next to the combobox to bring up style manager wouldn't be necessary, as that action would be available on every item in the list. 21:53 < estan> right? 21:53 < colomar> estan: yes 21:53 -!- colomar [[email protected]] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:53 < estan> alright. 21:54 < estan> o noes we lost our usability man-power. 21:54 * boemann will do the preview in the near future, so would like some ideas on how the previews should look 21:55 -!- colomar [[email protected]] has joined #calligra-styles-ui 21:55 * boemann will do the preview in the near future, so would like some ideas on how the previews should look 21:55 < estan> right. how about a little window as in my mockup, but perhaps square shaped, and some kind of overlayed icon to show that hovering the preview square will bring up a full size preview. 21:55 < colomar> (sorry, client crashed. What did I miss?) 21:55 < estan> colomar: we waited for you ;) 21:55 < boemann> colomar: nothing 21:55 < colomar> thx 21:56 < boemann> estan: well first of all i'd like to use the entire entry to be a preview 21:56 < boemann> the text of the preview could be the name 21:56 < colomar> yes 21:57 < colomar> like all good font selectors do ;) 21:57 < boemann> yeah 21:57 < estan> boemann: okay. 21:57 < colomar> Visualising paragraph styles would be more tricky, though 21:57 < boemann> yeah 21:57 < boemann> as there are many more things that can happen 21:57 < colomar> Alignment might be doable if we use a little extra width 21:57 < boemann> including drop caps and line spacing 21:58 < colomar> (although it might be hard to tell justify from center 21:58 < colomar> ) 21:58 < boemann> colomar: or a small symbolic representation 21:58 < estan> hm.. i think it's better for the list to just show the character properties of the style, and if you really want a full-blown preview of all the character properties, there could be a button to bring that up. 21:58 < boemann> like the icons on the buttons that chose 21:59 < colomar> estan: Or a tooltip instead of a button 21:59 < boemann> so char properties plus a small iconic preview 21:59 < estan> colomar: yes. 21:59 < boemann> and a popup yes 21:59 < estan> i think tooltip is a good idea, or maybe that's abusing tooltips? 21:59 < boemann> popup/tooltip 21:59 < colomar> estan: no 21:59 < colomar> I don't think so 21:59 < boemann> no krita does the tooltip thing with great success 22:00 < boemann> in it's layer box 22:00 < estan> alright. 22:00 < estan> but regarding the two lists, should we have a tabbed styles docker then, one tab with the list for character styles and another with the styles for paragraph styles? 22:01 < colomar> hm maybe 22:01 < boemann> still i think a small iconic representation is good too 22:01 < boemann> estan: i'd like them side by side and not tabbed 22:01 < colomar> boemann: I'm not sure. Maybe we should do a hi fidelity mockup of it and see if it looks good 22:01 < boemann> colomar: yeah 22:01 < estan> alright. but that will be one big docker. 22:02 < boemann> estan: yeah we'd have to experiment 22:02 < boemann> also for font size i don't think we should do actual representation 22:02 < boemann> only to an extent 22:03 < boemann> otherwise the text might become too big 22:03 < estan> yea, naturally there must be some limit. 22:03 < estan> hm. should both the compact and the big docker have buttons to add/remove styles? 22:04 < boemann> good question 22:04 < boemann> remove should be a popup on each entry 22:04 < boemann> as we don't select anymore 22:04 < colomar> yes 22:04 < estan> ah right. 22:04 < estan> but, popup? you mean a little pushbutton? 22:04 < boemann> yes 22:05 < estan> k. 22:05 < colomar> but appearing on hover 22:05 < colomar> like the edit button 22:05 < boemann> yes 22:05 < estan> yea. 22:05 < colomar> The big docker should definitely have an add button. I'm not entirely sure about the compact one, though... 22:06 < estan> yea me neither. 22:06 < boemann> me neither 22:06 * ZaggeM goes to bed 22:06 < boemann> g'night ZaggeM 22:06 < estan> good night. 22:06 < colomar> n8 22:06 < ZaggeM> was good to be here and see all the nice ideas 22:07 < estan> layout-wise it would be easier if it didn't have one. but for someone working with just the compact docker, how would he/she add a style then? 22:07 < boemann> you know the +sign next to current is a kind of add button already 22:07 < ZaggeM> but I have to say using the N900 as ird client is not easy 22:07 < boemann> ZaggeM: :) 22:08 < colomar> ZaggeM: I can imagine that 22:08 < estan> boemann: hm. plus sign? was this discussed earlier? or is it something that is there now? i must have missed that during a smoke break. 22:09 < colomar> estan: It is a button to add a modified style as a new one 22:09 < estan> ah. 22:09 < boemann> next to combo 22:10 < estan> ah. but in addition to that, could we not just have one item (the last?) in the combobox be "+ Add new" or something? 22:11 < boemann> could work 22:11 < colomar> hm maybe 22:12 -!- ZaggeM [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:12 < boemann> a little bit weird but could be made to look good 22:12 < boemann> it wouldn't be an entry but just some buttons that would be scrolled too 22:13 < boemann> hmm 22:13 < estan> yea. i've seen that approach used in some places. e.g. for filters in gmail if you've used that. it's a little wonky, but works. 22:14 < colomar> btw: I would place the button to add a modified style as a new one inside the combobox next to the current style as well, not next to the box 22:14 < boemann> colomar: yes 22:15 < estan> yes, i think that makes sense to, brings it closer to what it's related to. 22:15 < estan> it will be one pimped out combobox ;) 22:15 * estan back in 5. 22:16 < boemann> colomar: meanwhile in the first screenshot i showed 22:16 < boemann> in the top right corner there is a lock icon 22:16 < boemann> this brings up a titlebar for the super docker 22:16 < boemann> and unfixes the the size of the docker 22:17 < boemann> when locked the docker can not be moved or resized 22:17 < boemann> preventing flicker 22:17 < boemann> the scroll bar appears if the stuff inside is too large 22:18 < colomar> cool. That's pretty much what we had envisioned together, isn't it? 22:19 < boemann> yes 22:19 < boemann> i'm not sure if we have a build service set up for calligra yet 22:20 < boemann> but otherwise you might be able to try it out 22:21 < boemann> there is some details yet to be ironed out, and i stil need to do a tabbed mode 22:22 < colomar> I won't be able to try it this year anyway, since I'm at my parents' without my laptop and don't want to install anything on their machine 22:22 < colomar> So I can only try it when I'm back home 22:23 < estan> so, do we have any more burning issues regarding the styles UI to discuss? while we haven't covered everything naturally, i think we've concluded quite a bit already. it's a start at least. 22:23 < estan> tomorrow i'll re-read our conversation and summarize it on the wiki, and do a more serious first mockup sketch. 22:24 < estan> and then you can all comment on what i got wrong ;) 22:27 < estan> for now, i'll just put up the IRC log.