KDE Games/IRC Meetings/2009-05-02-log

[22:01:53] <it-s> meeting time?
[22:02:07] <it-s> everyone present say: Yar [22:02:22] <smajewsky> Yar. [22:02:47] <it-s> what? just one person? [22:02:47] <nielsslot> Yar.. not sure i'm of any use in the meeting though.. [22:03:16] <-- smajewsky ([email protected]) has quit (Remote closed the connection) [22:03:21] <it-s> nielsslot: of course! you will sign the and documents we give you, cos you have no idea what's in them :D [22:03:30] <nielsslot> :) [22:03:44] -*- it-s loves democracy [22:04:03] <it-s> mikelima: are you here? [22:04:04] <N3mZ> y0 [22:04:10] <cvandonderen> Yar [22:04:23] <Parkotron> it-s: mikelima had to go. [22:04:33] <it-s> Half-Left: so, are you gona do the accent, or not? [22:04:42] <it-s> Parkotron: ah [22:04:49] <it-s> Parkotron: are you here though? [22:04:59] <Parkotron> Kind of. [22:05:14] <it-s> Parkotron: twy then aren't you saying: Yar, like I told you? [22:05:15] --> smajewsky ([email protected]) has joined #kdegames [22:05:22] <smajewsky> Sorry, had to restart my X. [22:05:44] <Parkotron> Yaaaargh? [22:05:51] -*- it-s hopes smajewskydoesn't have any Ys to restart [22:05:54] <cvandonderen> Haha. ;-) [22:06:10] <Half-Left> it-s: Do what? [22:06:16] <it-s> well... we are a few, but we are salors! [22:06:22] <it-s> Half-Left: Yar? [22:06:39] <it-s> let us begin then [22:06:51] <it-s> the important question is: KDEGames Day [22:06:52] <Half-Left> Oh, I'm here [22:07:25] <cvandonderen> Who? When? What? [22:07:32] <it-s> Half-Left: I know, and Yar being your faworite word, I was sure you won't miss a perfect apportunity to astonish us ;) [22:07:48] <Half-Left> hehe [22:07:54] <it-s> does everyone know what KDEgames Day is? [22:08:14] <nielsslot> no, please explain :) [22:08:18] <Half-Left> Play kdegames for a day? :p [22:08:22] <cvandonderen> Not really... [22:08:26] <Half-Left> One day only [22:08:28] <Half-Left> :p [22:08:41] <it-s> well, KDEgames dsay is almost like Doomsday, but nnobody dies in the end ;) [22:09:16] <it-s> so we have thought we need to start gathering crowds to test the games that are currently in trunk [22:09:28] <smajewsky> like what the bugspuad is doing on bug days [22:09:46] <cvandonderen> Then we pre-compile them? [22:10:14] <cvandonderen> For easy testing... [22:10:40] <smajewsky> cvandonderen: It would be best to place kdegames days in the beta cycle, so that most people can update kdelibs and kdegames to current snapshots via package repositories. [22:10:46] <it-s> that's one of the things we have to decide [22:10:55] <smajewsky> BTW is anyone logging? [22:11:01] <it-s> good question [22:11:12] <it-s> I'm not. my log is broken [22:11:24] <smajewsky> Mine too, thanks to X. [22:11:43] <cvandonderen> It's in my Quassel [22:11:45] -*- it-s is glad smajewskyhas no Ys to thank [22:12:10] -*- smajewsky hopes that it-s stops bothering about my Y, I just did "sudo zypper rm Yorg" [22:12:11] <it-s> cvandonderen: so, are you loging then? [22:12:15] <nielsslot> i'm not sure.. i think my quassel has some automagic logging thingy.. [22:12:18] <cvandonderen> I can copy it later... [22:13:05] <smajewsky> So, kdegames day. Opinions? [22:13:06] <cvandonderen> yup, it has, and mine is colocated, it will not break [22:13:22] <it-s> well, since this is a very important meeting, I think I'll donate some of my personaly time, and Ys ;) to post the whole thing to the mailing list as a short conspect [22:13:50] <milliams> * We should organise it for a weekend [22:13:53] <it-s> smajewsky: no opinnions. we have to discuss the organisational points [22:14:02] <milliams> * We need a plan of particular things that need etsting [22:14:11] <it-s> milliams: why didn't you say Yar? how are we supposed to know you are here? [22:14:18] <milliams> ** i.e. game devs need to tell us what cool new thaings have been added [22:14:27] <milliams> it-s: Yaaaar!! [22:14:30] -*- nielsslot looks at KDE 4.3 release schedule.. beta 1 release is May 12, beta 2 June 9 [22:14:37] <milliams> it-s: (I'll be gone again in a few minutes) [22:14:38] <it-s> we need to: [22:14:46] <it-s> a) setup date and time [22:14:46] <smajewsky> milliams: So the best time IMO would be after the hard feature freeze. Distros start to provide packages, and all features are there. [22:14:54] <it-s> b) think of what will be tested [22:14:59] <cvandonderen> 3D for Kolf-ng will not exist :'( [22:15:10] <it-s> c) think of how will we test it [22:15:28] <milliams> smajewsky: Yup, around (after?) beta1 sounds ike a god idea [22:15:32] <it-s> cvandonderen: we will all cry on that later. now - KDEGames day. concentrate please [22:16:06] <it-s> and when is the beta1? [22:16:20] <nielsslot> ^^ i just said.. 12 May [22:16:21] <cvandonderen> So we do it with distropackages? [22:16:24] <milliams> http://techbase.kde.org/Schedules/KDE4/4.3_Release_Schedule#May_12th.2C_2009:_Release_KDE_4.3_Beta_1 [22:16:26] <smajewsky> it-s: On c), do you really think one can test games systematically? Only if people play with the game (as one would play with any other app one gets to test), they discover things that the devs didn't think about these things. [22:16:56] <it-s> smajewsky: no I don't. we have already tried that, and it didn't work [22:17:05] <it-s> that would my next question: [22:17:10] <it-s> how do we keep track? [22:17:11] <milliams> cvandonderen: Yeah, most distros shuold have pacakges by then, otherwise we can help people who need to compile [22:17:27] <it-s> I have a proposal [22:17:38] <it-s> how about a twitter-like interface [22:17:45] <it-s> we setup one for each game [22:17:58] <milliams> it-s: Re keeping track: A wiki page where we can hava a list of games where we record bugs, cool things, UI problems etc. [22:18:13] <smajewsky> milliams: Wiki pages might suffer from edit conflicts. [22:18:29] <cvandonderen> Can people actually file bugs against the playground games via bugs.kde.org? [22:18:30] <it-s> + we can't expect that everyone who comes will register [22:18:40] <it-s> I want the logging system to be easly accessable [22:18:48] <it-s> as in no need for log in/password [22:18:49] <smajewsky> cvandonderen: One can request to add the applications, but it's unusual. [22:18:59] <milliams> Ok, then simplest way I can think of is if we simply ask people to post in this channel with, eg "bug:ksquares:blah blah" and then we parse the logs afterwards [22:19:13] <smajewsky> milliams: Too complicated. [22:19:18] <milliams> or "ui:kmahjongg:too much fun" [22:19:22] <it-s> what's wrong with twitter? [22:19:28] <smajewsky> We need to keep the entry barrier as long as possible. [22:19:35] <cvandonderen> Then they need IRC, too difficult [22:19:39] <smajewsky> it-s: I don't know Twitter, please explain more in detail. [22:19:52] <nielsslot> can we use forum.kde.org possibly? [22:19:56] <smajewsky> Apart from that, the time frame to implement this Twitter-like interface is very short. [22:20:11] <it-s> it's an idiotic system where people post short messages just like here, but it's pn the web [22:20:37] <it-s> I was planning to utilise existing implementations [22:20:45] <it-s> an ajaxed interface [22:20:57] <it-s> I setup a simple site [22:21:01] <smajewsky> it-s: But can people post on some kind of public channel on Twitter (or Identi.ca)? [22:21:04] <it-s> with 1 page per game [22:21:08] <cvandonderen> You can post 140 char messages with Twitter like onlineSMS [22:21:47] <milliams> on Laconica, they can just tag their mesage with tags or groups [22:22:12] <milliams> But I feel it takes away the whole 'spirit of a meetup with other people' thing that we get with IRC [22:22:14] <cvandonderen> I could create a KDE Twitter, it's not thereyet. [22:22:14] <it-s> the thing is that I want to discourage people from writing essays about games [22:22:23] <it-s> we will have to read all those, remember? [22:22:33] <it-s> cvandonderen: really? [22:22:50] <it-s> milliams: ah no, but we will host a meeting [22:22:58] <milliams> (if we do use microblogging, I'd much prefer Identica over Twitter) [22:23:22] <milliams> (as would most free software people) [22:23:28] <it-s> milliams: alternatively, we could start a channel for each game, and ask people to post their comments/suggestions in those [22:23:36] <cvandonderen> I believe so [22:24:01] <it-s> milliams: while still having a general meeting (a controll center) in here [22:24:13] <milliams> it-s: That could work, as long as id doesn;t spread everything too thinly [22:24:14] <it-s> and then read through the logs [22:24:17] <N3mZ> one chan to rule them all. A bot could log messages here [22:24:25] <cvandonderen> Identi.ca can post to Twitter, not the other way around [22:24:51] <it-s> N3mZ: yes, but we will later need to separate the comments [22:25:07] <it-s> N3mZ: it's very difficult to do that when everyone is talking in the same time [22:25:15] <N3mZ> if comments are formated, like bug:appname: ... then easy [22:25:24] <Parkotron> it-s: Why not just everybody in one room, but if you're reporting an issue, you start your comment with, say, "KPAT:"? That way we can just compile issue lists by grepping the log. [22:25:26] <milliams> it-s: It could be done by prefacing with the name [22:25:48] <milliams> Parkotron, N3mZ: That was my suggestion earlier [22:25:49] <cvandonderen> There is an unused kde twitter account, so kdesktop would be an option [22:26:25] <Parkotron> milliams: Sorry. That's what happens when I duck out to get a bite to eat. [22:26:47] <it-s> ok, so date is set. the first week end after beta1 [22:26:58] <milliams> it-s: Sounds good [22:27:06] <it-s> now, what games are we going to review? [22:27:08] <smajewsky> So May 16 and 17. [22:27:14] <it-s> sounds good [22:27:26] <smajewsky> it-s: KGoldRunner should be up on the list, after the major rewrite. [22:27:29] <it-s> we have to split them between those two days? [22:27:36] <cvandonderen> isn't that too soon? [22:27:49] <smajewsky> cvandonderen: Why should it? Better sooner than later? [22:27:50] <milliams> Is there a need to limit the games being tested? [22:28:15] <smajewsky> milliams: We could propose some games that need testing, but prominently state that every game can be tested. [22:28:28] <milliams> smajewsky: Sounds good to me [22:28:43] <cvandonderen> Will everything be packaged by then I mean [22:28:49] <it-s> milliams: I think so. we don't want to get 50 suggestions about kgoldrunner and 1 aboout kmahjongg, instead we want to have the most data possible on all of them [22:29:14] <milliams> cvandonderen: Most distros should have packages on the day of release (since the tarballs are released about a week before thet) [22:29:14] <it-s> ah... cvandonderen, good point [22:29:30] <it-s> this should be our problme No1 actually [22:29:47] <smajewsky> it-s: In fact, e.g. openSUSE has Beta packages usually 2 or 3 days before Beta release. [22:29:47] <it-s> we need to provide reliable sources for poeple to install from [22:30:15] <it-s> in case onf Suse - no problem. 1 click install will do a great job [22:30:23] <milliams> If people need to compile, we can offer support with that [22:30:23] <smajewsky> And with the added padding from release until weekend, the packages should also be available in Kubuntu and Fedora Rawhide. These should be the most important ones. [22:30:28] <it-s> but ahow about Kubuntu, Mandriva, Slack? [22:30:28] <cvandonderen> We could put some 'unzip this & it should work'-packages [22:31:02] <smajewsky> cvandonderen: Such packages do not exist under Linux, esp. for projects like KDE with dozens of dependencies. [22:31:03] <it-s> milliams: the problem is that by 16th morning everyone should have it all done and ready, so we can concentrate on testing [22:31:17] <smajewsky> cvandonderen: Remember that you need a current kdelibs, too. [22:31:39] <cvandonderen> Aah, yes, the kdelibs [22:31:42] <smajewsky> it-s: I do not see a problem with that. 12 days are more than enough for packagers to package KDE 4.3 Beta 1. [22:31:42] <it-s> does anyone know if Klick is still alive? [22:32:03] <smajewsky> it-s: Seems to have had no stable release yet. [22:32:07] <it-s> that one would be great for the purpose [22:32:37] <it-s> or a virtual desktop of a sort [22:32:57] <it-s> with VirtualBox maybe [22:33:14] <it-s> does anyone know how to do a mini install like that? [22:33:14] <smajewsky> it-s: That's another idea. A current KDE 4 Live CD from Stephan Binner should be available by then, and that is really easy to set up in VBox. [22:33:36] <it-s> smajewsky: sounds good. how big is the Download? [22:33:39] <cvandonderen> let's assume the packages are,there & we have a logging system, how much time isthere to fix the bugs? [22:33:42] <smajewsky> it-s: Normal CD ISO. [22:33:48] <milliams> smajewsky: You mean like http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/Medias/images/iso/ [22:33:57] <smajewsky> milliams: Right. [22:34:06] <milliams> That's assuming it has all kdegames on it [22:34:06] <smajewsky> http://home.kde.org/~binner/kde-four-live if I recall correctly. [22:34:17] <cvandonderen> correct [22:34:20] <milliams> otherwise someone could make someting with SuseStudio [22:34:28] <smajewsky> milliams: Isnt [22:34:40] <smajewsky> milliams: Isn't that invitation-only at the moment? [22:34:41] <cvandonderen> I have a Studio account [22:34:49] <it-s> milliams: why won't we try? [22:35:02] <milliams> smajewsky: I have an account also [22:35:09] <it-s> it may not be ready for this testing, but we want to have this regularly [22:35:38] <smajewsky> cvandonderen,milliams: Could we count on one of you for providing a live CD, assuming that packages are available on time? [22:35:42] <it-s> a minimal distro that would surely work in a Virtual Box, and have a minimal desktop with all the games [22:35:53] <milliams> I can have a go, yes [22:36:07] <it-s> that would be superb!!!! [22:36:13] <smajewsky> it-s: This is what suse studio brings you. You say "give me a live CD with kdegames" and it pulls in everything needed. [22:36:15] <cvandonderen> I can mirror the image, 10 gbps uplink I believe [22:36:21] -*- it-s is ecstatic [22:36:24] <Half-Left> Why don't we start a KDEGames distro just for that then? [22:36:51] <it-s> Half-Left: that's what we are talking about, yes :P [22:37:11] <smajewsky> If possible, we should also provide some pre-made configuration for VBox, to make it idiot-proof. [22:37:40] -*- smajewsky realizes that "idiot-proof" is a very hard goal [22:37:45] <nielsslot> I just asked in #kubuntu-devel if they should have packages around May 16.. their planing to have packages shortly after the release, but are not sure that's going to be before the 16 of May [22:37:46] <cvandonderen> We can do that, the only problem is that it depends on the packagesbeing on time [22:37:49] <Half-Left> usb would be a good idea, less latency [22:37:56] <it-s> smajewsky: even better, we could provide a Virtual Box image where the whole thing is already installed and setup [22:38:34] <smajewsky> it-s: I know, but wouldn't that be much fatter than a live CD ISO? [22:38:35] <cvandonderen> Studio possibility is VMWare I believe [22:38:48] <Half-Left> Why use vbox when you can run it straight off USB live? [22:38:49] <it-s> smajewsky: yesm but we can tar.gz it [22:38:50] <cvandonderen> Not VBox [22:39:24] <smajewsky> Half-Left: Because your network might not work in live environment (e.g. Jaunty on my system). [22:39:40] <cvandonderen> Some PC's cannot boot from USB [22:39:40] <smajewsky> Half-Left: Apart from that, I want the user to be able to continue working if he needs to. [22:39:41] <it-s> smajewsky: allocate only as much space is mecessary, then install, then stup, then tar and distribute [22:40:05] <it-s> smajewsky: the bare SuSE install should be a tiny one [22:40:05] <Half-Left> Well you can on a Live USB, you don't need network just for our games [22:40:26] <smajewsky> Half-Left: But you need network to provide feedback. [22:40:34] <cvandonderen> But you do to submit bugs [22:40:36] <it-s> smajewsky: we need no cups, no alsa, no codecs, no OOO, no video drives, no nothing [22:40:57] <smajewsky> it-s: kdegames requires kdelibs requires phonon requires gstreamer requires alsa. [22:41:11] <Half-Left> xine [22:41:17] <it-s> smajewsky: xine [22:41:19] <smajewsky> it-s: It is ... challenging to strip a distro down as much as possible. [22:41:31] <it-s> smajewsky: gstreamer is going to pool the whole of Gnome along [22:41:35] <cvandonderen> And on vesa even kpatience runs slow [22:41:47] -*- smajewsky does not see the difference between xine and gstreamer, as phonon is backend-agnostic [22:41:59] <it-s> cvandonderen: it won't be vesa. virtual box uses OpenGL for acceliration [22:42:04] <cvandonderen> Not really yauap [22:42:14] <it-s> smajewsky: gstreamer is largerm and needs gnome [22:43:16] <cvandonderen> kay, but usb will be vesa & for the OGL they need the vbox tools [22:43:36] <it-s> well, anyhow. we have come up with the meeting structure, means of setup, date and time, means of logging and reccord [22:43:58] <it-s> I will make a mailing list post later with a summary and we can continue discussion there [22:44:05] <it-s> I need to go now [22:44:11] <smajewsky> End of meeting? [22:44:18] <it-s> I guess so [22:44:31] <it-s> smajewsky: it's only me, you, and cvandonderen left [22:44:41] <nielsslot> Yar? [22:44:51] -*- it-s notes that a Half is always Left [22:45:00] <Half-Left> :p [22:45:01] <it-s> oh yes, and nielsslot [22:45:03] <smajewsky> cvandonderen: Could you please put the log on Techbase? [22:45:12] <cvandonderen> ehmm, will try.... [22:45:14] <cvandonderen> :P [22:45:27] <it-s> cvandonderen: and now back to your laments. why no 3D? [22:45:47] <cvandonderen> it-s not enough time, no framework yet [22:45:56] <cvandonderen> too difficult [22:45:57] <cvandonderen> :P [22:46:00] <Half-Left> Why do we need 3D? [22:46:08] <cvandonderen> why not? [22:46:09] <cvandonderen> comeon [22:46:15] <smajewsky> Half-Left: Because everything is 3D internally, already. [22:46:19] <cvandonderen> even phones do everything in 3D [22:46:25] <Half-Left> eh? [22:46:32] <cvandonderen> & us nerds still want black screens with green letters [22:46:32] <Half-Left> Our games are 2D [22:46:39] <cvandonderen> this is not the 80's [22:46:47] <smajewsky> Kolf is both 2D and 3D. [22:46:56] <Half-Left> Why do you need 3D to test our games [22:47:12] <cvandonderen> if we put the 3D stuff in you need OGL support [22:47:14] <smajewsky> We're talking about Kolf-NG. [22:47:23] <cvandonderen> & Palapeli too [22:47:29] <smajewsky> No! [22:47:31] <cvandonderen> unless you strip that out [22:47:33] <smajewsky> Palapeli is so 2D! [22:47:41] <cvandonderen> you use an OpenGL viewport [22:47:44] <cvandonderen> ;-) [22:47:44] <smajewsky> It only uses OpenGL for speedup. [22:47:56] <cvandonderen> if you don't have OGL that cannot be rendered [22:48:06] <cvandonderen> luckily the vesa driver can display it [22:48:13] <smajewsky> If you don't have OGL you simply do not get this optimization option. [22:48:15] <Half-Left> Just use the 2d games, thats all we need [22:48:18] <cvandonderen> which it officially should not [22:49:09] <Half-Left> What's with Vesa, Xorg rearely uses that for cards nowdays [22:49:15] <Half-Left> rarely* [22:49:40] <-- smarter (n=smarter@ubuntu/member/smarter) has quit ("No Ping reply in 90 seconds.") [22:49:51] --> smarter (n=smarter@ubuntu/member/smarter) has joined #kdegames [22:50:20] <Half-Left> Just pick a live distro and set it up for kdegames, it's pretty simple [22:50:22] <cvandonderen> if you don't package the ati or radeon drivers, or if you have an ATi X700 you thank god that there is VESA [22:50:53] <Half-Left> VESA is actually faster than you think as well, good enough for our games